"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/27/2020 at 22:46 • Filed to: None
2
56|
"functionoverfashion" (functionoverfashion)
05/27/2020 at 22:46 • Filed to: None | 2
| 56 |
I *might* have mentioned on here before, I’ve got a 2003 Nautique. It’s a wakeboarding boat. I think it’s pretty sweet. Backing up a second to the world of most people don’t actually have boats it really, really is a nice boat. I can take my family out in comfort for a day of whatever it is we do out there on the lake. We are very lucky to have it.
I spend a fair bit of time on the Nautique forums because, for one, I have learned a TON from them, and I enjoy giving back to the community that gave me so much. People come on there all the time asking silly questions, or complicated questions, and I’m happy to help. I’ve also worked in the industry, so I’m not going to recite the manual to you, I’m able to give practical advice.
So I’ve worked in the industry, I have a “Super Air Nautique,” even though it’s 17 years old. I have a family house on a lake, some of our lake friends are billionaires, okay I get it. Boats are expensive and blah blah blah.
Still, I kind of don’t understand modern wake boats.
I’m talking about this:
This boat is 23' long. My boat is 21' long.
Notice, mine is on a single axle. Its dry (no pun intended) weight is about 2,800lbs, (take note of this number) let’s just call it 3,000 with accessories. 3,500 with gear. With ballast filled and a few people, it’s pushing 5,000 lbs in the water.
The G23 pictured above, on the other hand, is more than double that. I haven’t even talked (lately) about how they cost $150k and mine was ~$50k new in 2003. Someone recently pulled their G23 onto a scale and found it to be 6,858 lbs with gear and fuel, not counting the trailer.
The Nautique website says the G23 comes with a maximum 2,850lbs (remember what else is 2,800 lbs?) of factory ballast, so that’s 9,708lbs before anyone gets in, or brings a cooler or anything like that. You better believe they’re bringing a Yeti or two and by the way it’s rated for 16 people. SIXTEEN. You’re over 11,000 lbs even with just the same number of people I might have in my boat, about 6. ELEVEN. THOUSAND. POUNDS. It’s only 2 feet longer, and 10" wider. That’s it. Freeboard is the term to describe how much of the boat is out of the water, and it must have double that. I can lean over from the driver’s seat, and if I lift up my butt a little, I can touch the water. No way in hell in the G23.
By the way the base engine is just 370hp, which, for comparison, mine is 330hp and it’s not overpowered under a full load. I actually feel bad for someone who buys the base engine, it would be awful.
I mean, I understand boats in a general sense. The money just scales up and your neighbor has 10x more than you and the next guy has 10x more than that, and he’s buying this insane $150k boat that does the same for his family that my $20-something-thousand boat does for mine. But then I look at these numbers and think WHAT IN HOLY HELL?! Why is that boat 10,000 lbs? They’re just cruising around and wakeboarding sometimes!?
I think of a thought experiment I do sometimes, to understand money: for me, going out for lunch for a $10 sandwich is no big deal, just not what I’d do every day, or for every meal . Someone with 10x of my means would think the same of a $100 meal, perhaps. Or a $100 bottle of wine. No big deal, just not maybe every single day or every meal, right? Well keep going, so if someone has 100x my means, now $1,000 is the same to them as my $10 sandwich. No big deal, just not money you’d let go freely 3x per day every day. Another 10x and it’s $10,000. No big deal, just 10 grand. My sister has a friend who doesn’t think much of buying another $5m house, if he feels like it. Just not every day.
It’s like if you have a VW Vanagon, then you see a kitted-out 4wd Econoline and think “wow neat ” and then this appears:
I get it. But I don’t. What are you doing with a 10,000 pound boat when a few years ago you would have loved a 21 footer like mine?
Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
> functionoverfashion
05/27/2020 at 23:00 |
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Isn’t the weight useful for making an enormous wake to do sicc stuntz off of?
ranwhenparked
> functionoverfashion
05/27/2020 at 23:00 |
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Been to a Walmart lately? Our vehicles reflect our population, we’re an increasingly obese society, so our trucks, cars, SUVs, and also boats have gotten obese along with us.
fintail
> functionoverfashion
05/27/2020 at 23:12 |
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Everything is getting heavier - boats, cars, wealth consolidation. So we get big expensive boats.
TheD0k_2many toys 2little time
> functionoverfashion
05/27/2020 at 23:13 |
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Then you have to buy a 70k diesel truck to pull it. Its getting crazy out here
gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
> Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
05/27/2020 at 23:13 |
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I would also assume smoothing out the choppy ride.
TheRealBicycleBuck
> functionoverfashion
05/27/2020 at 23:14 |
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A friend of mine was looking at buying a new boat for wake surfing. That’s the key here - wake surfing. The surf boat he was telling me about may have been this one since the price was about the same. The key difference was the two ballast tanks with computer-controlled high-speed pumps for moving water into, out of, and between the tanks. I’m guessing the extra freeboard is to keep the boat afloat when both ballast tanks are full. The extra weight rating is for the same. The extra axles are for those times when you forget to empty the tanks or just can’t be bothered to take the time.
My friend considered how much wake surfing he and his boys would actually do and decided to stick with the boat he already owns. Instead of buying a boat, he bought more scuba gear and a trip for the family to Tahiti.
Deal Killer - Powered by Focus
> functionoverfashion
05/27/2020 at 23:15 |
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Pardon my response, but I’m hip deep in Scotch at the moment, but. God damn boats are a fucking money pit. They depreciate faster than a BMW 7 series with 50K miles. Maybe RV’s lose money faster, and I’m talking the big diesel pusher ones. But at least they aren’t a constant maintenance nightmare that boats seem to be. My neighbor had a 20+ foot in-board/out-board, and was constantly fucking with that damn thing. A water pump here, bilge pump there. That thing was never running perfectly it seemed. Buying a decent used boat is really the only way to go, IMHO. I see them all the time in the list of Craig, at steep discounts. With the Covid, I’m going to assume many, many people are going to unload boats, RV’s and other toys that they can no longer afford to make payments on. At a steep loss too.
ClassicDatsunDebate
> functionoverfashion
05/27/2020 at 23:16 |
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It’s the confluence of historically low cost of borrowing, a fairly robust economy and people’s attitude towards debt. Add in the 2foot-idous psychology of boat ownership and throw in a dash of instagram fueled narcissism and boom...Ski Nautique has just the thing built for that psychographic.
Chariotoflove
> functionoverfashion
05/27/2020 at 23:16 |
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I do my wakeboarding on the Wii. It’s cheaper and safer.
My BIL has a lovely boat that he gets to use in Lake Michigan, about your size. He would laugh at that expensive behemoth.
WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
> functionoverfashion
05/27/2020 at 23:22 |
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I’m with you to a cartain point . My X2 has half the freeboard and weight of a modern wake boat . Th e Mastercraft X24 (24 feet l ong duh) ends up around 11,000 lbs with just the ballast. A dd people and gear and you’re around 12-14 THOUSAND pounds. Wild. Oh, and they sell a 26 footer too.
That being said, the surf wave? Insane. I love surfing behind my boat, but it doesn’t hold a candle to the new stuff. Every time I go back to Orlando to hang with my buddies, I get to ride most of the new Axis/Malibu/Nautique and Mastercraft boats and they are amazing. It ruins me for a while when I go back to mine.
I bet the indu stry saw how low their boats were sitting in the water when people slammed the m with extra ballast and lead, and decided they didn’t want all of their boats sinking left and right. SO there’s all the extra freeboard right there.
Th e cost on the other hand, is out of control. Want a new G23 Paragon? Th at’ll be a cool $300,000. X-Stars are in the $200k range too. Th e only upside to the insane costs, are that the value of my boat is maintaining nicely.
My wave for reference:
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ClassicDatsunDebate
> fintail
05/27/2020 at 23:22 |
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I’m literally Boss Hog over here
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WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
> gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
05/27/2020 at 23:24 |
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The hulls on wake boats have never been all that great over chop since the rear portion tends to flatten out to create better wakes. The extra freeboard certainly helps maintain a dry ride through chop though.
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WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
> Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
05/27/2020 at 23:24 |
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Yes and no. If the hull design is inferior, additional weight won’t always make for a better (or even bigger) wake/wave.
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WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
> TheRealBicycleBuck
05/27/2020 at 23:27 |
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You’d only ever load a boat with full ballast under an extreme emergency. Th e second axle definitely helps with load dispersion and straight tracking while towing. Th e triple axle trailers (all of the major manufacturers now offer them) are strictly for show.
Also, they’re a pain in the ass to backup compared to a single or double axle.
Sovande
> functionoverfashion
05/27/2020 at 23:28 |
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Isn't it heavy on purpose? My 22' boat is 4500 pounds.
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WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
> ClassicDatsunDebate
05/27/2020 at 23:29 |
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Hurtful (I’m in that demographic , minus the debt)
And true!
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fintail
> ClassicDatsunDebate
05/27/2020 at 23:29 |
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gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
> WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
05/27/2020 at 23:30 |
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would the extra total weight reduce the influence of passengers moving around?
This is 10+ years ago, but i always remember my uncle yelling at someone to move back to their seat as people shifted around.
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WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
> Deal Killer - Powered by Focus
05/27/2020 at 23:33 |
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Buying a quality product from the jump makes a huge difference. I’ve put over 400 hours over 5 years on my Mastercraft, and have only replace a fuel pump. Anecdotal I know, but it’s a pretty similar experience to what you hear if you go to the Nautique/Mastercraft/Malibu forums.
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WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
> gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
05/27/2020 at 23:36 |
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N ot really. I’ve ridden in brand new boats with professional wakeboarders doing insane things, and without fail, when they start their run, we have to shift around the lead weight bags to even out the weight.
Snuze: Needs another Swede
> functionoverfashion
05/27/2020 at 23:37 |
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23 ft? 370 HP? 11,000 lbs? $150k?
Destriero or GTFO!
222 ft, 60,000 HP, 896,000 lbs, and untold $$$
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ClassicDatsunDebate
> WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
05/27/2020 at 23:50 |
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Not intended to be hurtful....my major was in marketing. I don’t judge, I just align products with psychographics.
Well, maybe I judge a little ...but not my Oppo friends.
LastFirstMI is my name
> functionoverfashion
05/27/2020 at 23:56 |
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At our friend’s lake house, there are ocean-worthy 38’ boats with RADARS.... like you could somehow get lost in the fog or caught in a squall on Grand Lake in Oklahoma. Now that I think about it, forget autonomous cars, we need self-driving boats to get all the drunk people back to the marina safely!
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WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
> ClassicDatsunDebate
05/27/2020 at 23:59 |
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No, it’s fine, and a lot of the stereotypes are true.
I liken it to supercars. If you see one driving a round fast you immediately write that person off as an asshole. If you’re the one driving it around fast, it’s the greatest thing ever.
66P1800inpieces
> Deal Killer - Powered by Focus
05/28/2020 at 00:01 |
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Star for the Scotch!
SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media
> functionoverfashion
05/28/2020 at 00:04 |
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Wake boats are things that, as a former waterway ecology management type person, I’m not really a fan of. The oversized wake destroys river banks and littoral zones and the noise underwater is cacophonous...not great for the wildlife.
So the fact that they are getting bigger is not great but less affordable is something positive since it might mean they decline in popularity...
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WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
> SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media
05/28/2020 at 00:12 |
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As a wa ke boat owner, it is sad to see how some people treat shorelines. We keep to running up and down the center of the lake. Mostly beca use you don’t need pristine water to surf, and also to minimize any chance of hurting the shore.
That said, any 25+ foot cabin cruiser will put out a comparable wake.
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SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media
> WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
05/28/2020 at 05:34 |
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Fortunately, most of our navigable rivers are completely unsuitable for cabin cruisers due to lack of depth ...and those estuarine ones that are suitable often have hard stone banks. Ultimately, boat traffic of any kind does have a derogatory impact on a waterway and as long as everyone is comfortable with the result then...oh well.
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functionoverfashion
> SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media
05/28/2020 at 06:21 |
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Indeed, I basically agree even though I own one. I think my boat is really in a different category than these newer things, for the reasons above. There is (was) a study committee in New Hampshire on the effects of “wake boats” and if you have studies that you think might be helpful to them, I can give you contact info or whatever, for when they eventually resume their work.
It really does come down to how you use it, i.e. not all diesel 1-ton pickups are rolling coal everywhere, but every vehicle that’s rolling coal is a diesel 1-ton pickup. Not every wake boat is out there maxed out surfing at 11mph 50 feet from shore, but... you get the idea.
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functionoverfashion
> Deal Killer - Powered by Focus
05/28/2020 at 06:32 |
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I’ll second what GTI...etc said. If you buy the right boat, it can be pretty reasonable. That said, it does take some upkeep, these things aren’t built in volume like an F-150 or something.
Re: depreciation. You’re right about that, initially anyway. But there again, in the best-known brands, that flattens out pretty fast. My boat was $50k-ish new in 2003. I bought it in 2017 for $28k. Boats like mine in good condition are still selling for $25-30k, that seems to be where they are flattening out for now. That’s pretty good residual value, really.
That said I’m not offended at your analysis at all. You’re generally right. There are a lot of poorly-made boats out there, and even more whose owners over the years haven’t maintained them properly, so they have a ton of deferred maintenance aka problems waiting to happen.
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functionoverfashion
> ClassicDatsunDebate
05/28/2020 at 06:40 |
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I really wonder what’s going to happen with these things in a few years. I wondered that before the economy took a nosedive of historic proportions. Who buys these things when they’re 5-10 years old, out of warranty, and still really expensive with probably really poor financing terms?
We did not finance our boat, that’s not my thing. But I suspect a lot of the $150k wake boats are indeed financed at some alarming rates, and I wonder how many of those are behind right now.
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functionoverfashion
> ranwhenparked
05/28/2020 at 06:42 |
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True, but the difference is, the large family vehicles haven’t doubled in size. Still, we do tend to drive enormous vehicles.
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functionoverfashion
> TheD0k_2many toys 2little time
05/28/2020 at 06:44 |
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The person who took his G23 to the weigh station in fact has a Diesel Ram 3500. Even then, you probably shouldn’t be just tossing 8,000 lbs onto a regular ball hitch. You need weight distribution, etc. and I don’t even know what all the rules are. There are plenty of discussions on the forums, though, every time someone says “Hey my wife’s X5 has a tow rating of 7,500lbs, can I pull my 6,400 lb boat?” *flames*
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functionoverfashion
> Sovande
05/28/2020 at 06:45 |
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Very much so, it’s just... the scale astonishes me.
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functionoverfashion
> WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI
05/28/2020 at 06:48 |
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You’re right about surf waves, that’s for sure. It’s just the next big thing, and it also certainly helps the value of boats like ours.
The Paragon is pure insanity. I want one of the original Paragons, those are beautiful; an ideal combination of wooden-boat aesthetics and fiberglass construction.
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SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media
> functionoverfashion
05/28/2020 at 07:56 |
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I get the idea.
shop-teacher
> functionoverfashion
05/28/2020 at 09:09 |
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It will be interesting to see who can't keep up they're $1200 a month for 156 months boat payment. Probably several.
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shop-teacher
> functionoverfashion
05/28/2020 at 10:11 |
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I generally don't understand the more for the sake of more mentality that often develops in higher end marketplaces.
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shop-teacher
> shop-teacher
05/28/2020 at 10:30 |
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Gadamn it! That's twice this morning I mixed up they're and their, and I missed the edit window!
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TheD0k_2many toys 2little time
> functionoverfashion
05/28/2020 at 11:51 |
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Yes it could pull it. Stopping? Good luck. Also good luck with emergency manuvers lol
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functionoverfashion
> shop-teacher
05/28/2020 at 13:22 |
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I don’t either. I would not build a 10,000sf home if I could. At least, I don’t think I would.
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functionoverfashion
> shop-teacher
05/28/2020 at 13:23 |
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Their, they’re now, its allright.
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functionoverfashion
> shop-teacher
05/28/2020 at 13:26 |
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Somewhat related, a local realtor is known (to me anyway) for doing 2-year leases on different luxury brands. Every 2 years he’s got a new... A7, S500, Jag, Panamera, Cadillac, I can’t remember which one he has now. I HAVE to believe he doesn’t have 12 months of car payments saved up, and the real estate market isn’t really booming right now. I mean, it was, but it’s gotta be slow.
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gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
> LastFirstMI is my name
05/28/2020 at 13:28 |
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(Googles grand lake) it’s only a mile wide, how often do you have fog roll in?
PMB
> functionoverfashion
05/28/2020 at 13:42 |
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Yup, some Nautique like mentioned in the article will sell for MRSP is they are kept in good condition. Most of the depreciation happens in the first 2 or 3 years
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shop-teacher
> functionoverfashion
05/28/2020 at 14:02 |
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Me neither . I could see building a really nice 4000ish sq-ft home if I had the money. That’s about twice as big as my current house, and I cannot imagine ever using or wanting more than that.
Now the garage ... well, that’s another story ;)
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shop-teacher
> functionoverfashion
05/28/2020 at 14:02 |
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LOL!
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shop-teacher
> functionoverfashion
05/28/2020 at 14:04 |
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That’s pretty common among the high end realtor set. My mom worked among them for many years. If they’ve been in the game long enough to make it through the previous downturns, they may have more packed away than you’d think ... but not all of them are that smart, that’s for sure.
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functionoverfashion
> shop-teacher
05/28/2020 at 15:22 |
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Similar in size and sentiment here; it’s feeling a little small now that we’re all here all (most) of the time, but we’re really still not using all the space we have. But we are, for example, using part of the woodshed as a porch just to have a place to get away, and it’s screened but somewhat open to airflow.
And yes, the garage... well let’s see. 3 cars, so 3 bays, plus one for the boat, now we’re at 4 but we need space for the lawn mower and space enough to work around the cars, so, that sounds like an aircraft hangar. Perfect.
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functionoverfashion
> TheD0k_2many toys 2little time
05/28/2020 at 15:24 |
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Right, exactly. I moved my boat around my yard with my Volvo XC70. Not down the road, no thank you!
CB
> functionoverfashion
05/28/2020 at 21:01 |
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Follow up question: I know that boats are terrible with fuel economy (grew up with an 80s Boston Whaler), but how much gas must that new boat burn?
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CB
> functionoverfashion
05/28/2020 at 21:04 |
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You had the perfect setup to make an underwater loan joke and you missed it. I’m disappointed.
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functionoverfashion
> CB
05/28/2020 at 21:45 |
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You might even say I missed the boat on that one.
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CB
> functionoverfashion
05/28/2020 at 21:47 |
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functionoverfashion
> CB
05/28/2020 at 21:52 |
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My new boat or the G23? Actually it doesn’t matter. It’s a lot, and it’s one of those things to which the most correct and also the most rude answer is, “if you have to ask you can’t afford it.”
But seriously, I don’t know. Single-digit MPG, for sure. The way I use my boat currently, I can go a couple weeks without filling it. But if I spent a day wakeboarding and cruising around the lake like I used to, you could burn a whole 37-gallon tank in a day, easily.
As the local marina was closed, I put a 5-gallon can into it the other day on our way out, and one of my kids asked “are we gonna use all of that?” And I thought about it, hmm, we’ll be out for about 2 hours... going 4 miles across the lake and back... “yeah we might”
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LastFirstMI is my name
> gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
05/29/2020 at 00:13 |
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There is a permanent layer of alcohol-induced fog on that lake, broken by occasional meth-storms.